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Are we Omni-carnivores or Herbivores?

by Fred Hahn on April 28, 2012

Blogs are fun places to read all sorts of wacky comments. Frequently the comments are more fun and sometimes more informative than the blog itself.

Today I received a really wacky comment to my blog on the ridiculously biased movie Forks Over Knives. I thought it would be fun to share the exchange.

The commenter’s statements, written word for word, are in quotes. My responses are below them followed by three ***.

What I find so very interesting is that, like many vegans, they fail to use Google or some other search engine to see if what they are saying is based on any, um, facts. Let the games begin!

“Mr. Fred Hahn, please speak based on facts. The only argument I’ve heard from you is that eating meat has been a staple part of human beings’ diet. Not enough.”

***Not enough for what Khaled? Science has shown conclusively that animal matter has been a part of the human diet since the paleolithic era. It is how we grew larger brains and eventually became the dominant ape on the planet.

“As human beings evolve, so does science and technology. You should listen to the scientific data. And if you really believe in evolution, let me point out 2 things for you…”

***I don’t *believe* in evolution. Evolution is a proven fact. HOW we evolved exactly is debated, but we, like every other living thing on the planet, has and continues to evolve.

“First, amongst all the animals on earth, the ones with teeth patterns similar to ours are herbivores.”

***This is patently false.

http://www.brianpeskin.com/BP.com/elements/herbivorecarnivorechart.jpg

“Second, any carnivorous animal has a digestive tract which is at MOST 3 times it’s bodies’ length. Human beings’ digestive tract is almost 12 times his height. The meat is quickly processed, then begins to rot in our bodies.”

****This too is patently false. And we are omnivores btw. Q:Where do you come up with this info? (There is something called Google you know.) The main problem is not so much the length of the colon, but the type of digestive process. Our bacterial flora, like other meat eaters, is putrefactive. The herbivores is fermentative.

“Regarding vegan diets, you only manage to say that it doesn’t provide enough protein and lacks a few other nutrients. Do you have any proof of its’ ill-affects?”

***Vegan diets lack, among other things, iron, B12 and adequate amino acids and in the right ratio. This is more than enough evidence to show you it is deficient and therefore will cause ill-effects unless you supplement. If you get hit by a car at 80 miles an hour, you WILL be injured. I don’t need any more evidence than that.

“I’d like to see some.”

***Go to your local GP and ask them to tell you how their pure vegan patients fare, specifically, the ones that do not supplement with vitamins D, B12, selenium or iron (oh right, they’d be the dead ones). Ask them specifically if they see a trend in them towards anemia and high blood glucose. But careful! The answer might surprise you.

“And btw, is it possible for human beings to live on an exclusively animal-based diet. No! But is it possible for human beings to live on an exclusively plant-based diet. Hell yes!”

***You have it exactly opposite. Ever heard of the Inuit? The Masai? Name me ONE culture, past or present, that lives/lived exclusively on plant matter (meaning, no bugs, shellfish, or supplements).

“One final point: While it’s true that for several thousands of years human beings’ ate meat, it doesn’t prove that it’s optimal. You see, in those years, getting enough plant-based foods was not easy. The diet was based on whatever you could find around you. But today, you can find absolutely any vegetable and fruit you like. Times have changed, Fred.”

***Indeed times have changed. We now experience more disease, obesity, diabetes, etc. than ever before. As our country had decreased its fat consumption and increased its carbohydrate consumption, we have become a nation of obese diabetics riddled with heart disease and cancer. All of which were absent PRIOR to the advent of agriculture.

All that said, realize that eating plants is perfectly fine. Plant matter can provide some nutrients. But edible plant matter is only available at certain times of the year and certainly not everything that is plant matter is edible to us very much UNLIKE an herbivore. Deer, goats, sheep can eat a huge variety of forest matter. Cows, horses, etc. eat grass all day long and live well.

Since YOU say you are an herbivore and seem to suggest humans will thrive eating as one, I’d like to see you eat ONLY grass, pine needles, fruit tree leaves, sapling bark, etc., and after say 6 months, see what your health status is. If you’re right, you should be the picture of robust human health. If I’m right, you’ll be in the hospital in 6 hours.
__________________________________________________________

The next time a vegan or a vegetarian (whatever that really is) tosses the “Humans are herbivores!” mantra at you, refer them to the chart above. I think I’m going to make a poster out of it and put it up in my gym.

Food author Michael Pollan is quoted as saying:

Eat food, not too much, mostly plants.

I say:

Eat food, mostly animal matter, and don’t worry about the amount.

I've been involved in exercise ever since I became a member of The Charles Atlas Club when I was 10 years old. In 1998, I founded and established Serious Strength on the Upper West Side of NYC. My clients include kids, seniors (and everyone in between), top CEOs, celebrities, bestselling authors, journalists and TV personalities.
my book. my Gym.

in Nutrition,Philosophy,weight loss/diet · 39 comments

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Vegans are just weak humans - Page 2 | Mark's Daily Apple Health and Fitness Forum page 2
May 14, 2012 at 2:48 PM

{ 38 comments… read them below or add one }

sumoman April 28, 2012 at 12:18 PM

According to my personal guru, Dr Doug Graham, we are neither herbivores nor carnivores… but frugivores, i.e. fruit eaters.

Fred Hahn April 28, 2012 at 1:12 PM

If Dr. Graham means exclusively fruit eaters, he is guruly mistaken.

Try it Juan. Eat only fruit for the next 3 months. Snap some before/after pics on a weekly basis. Love to see your new and improved muscularity and robust health.

Ian Shaw April 28, 2012 at 1:56 PM

An entertaining chart, but I’d always be wary of data where the samples have been carefully chosen to demonstrate a point (cough… Ancel Keys’ 7-Country Study … cough). A sheep is a ruminant and not much like a human; I’d be more impressed it the comparator were, say, a gorilla.

Fred Hahn April 28, 2012 at 2:53 PM

Ian – Good point. Search for videos by Dr. Barry Groves. Though Gorillas eat only plants, they like other plant eaters, convert their food to saturated fats for fuel.

sumoman April 28, 2012 at 4:18 PM

But Fred, Dr Graham says that meat eaters create an acidic environment which dissolves their bones – maybe this is why you have poor joints?

Fred Hahn April 28, 2012 at 5:45 PM

“But Fred, Dr Graham says that meat eaters create an acidic environment which dissolves their bones – maybe this is why you have poor joints?”

But I don’t. Please try the experiment and see how you fare. What you say? No?

insane grok April 28, 2012 at 11:27 PM

will have to print out this chart and hang it beside of the paleo flowchart.

thanks fred, always love reading your post :)

sumoman April 29, 2012 at 4:58 AM

But Fred your knees and back are ruined from a little Kung Fu, whereas my joints are unfazed by 1000-lb abuses. You also have always had a ‘squidgy’ physique common to fatty-meat eaters. It would be more appropriate for you to go on a fruit diet like my buddy Matt (blue t-shirt); http://vimeo.com/15686594

Matt went from a fatty-meat diet and lost his squidgy belly and has loads more energy and recently did a 28 mile marathon.

Fred Hahn April 29, 2012 at 7:48 AM

Juan –

I studied Karate, not Kung Fu, from the age of 16 to 36. I also jogged, played baseball in college, did all kinds of stupid exercises like depth jumping, single leg lunges, etc. all with severely bowed legs. That is why my knees are shot. Many athletic people’s knees are damaged/shot by age 35. My back has been bad since a teenager. I was born with fused L4/5 and an extra vertabrae below L5 over S1. It’s a structural abnormality. How many times must I say this. Either your fruit diet has melted your cerebral cortex or you’re just a shit.

Running marathon’s are bad for you. And refraining from eating fatty meat did not allow your friend to lose body fat. In fact, over time if he refrains from eating fatty meats his health and strength will suffer.

And you lie about not having been injured.

Fred Hahn April 29, 2012 at 7:49 AM

Thanks Grok.

Anne April 29, 2012 at 8:17 AM

I enjoyed your post too Fred and am keeping the chart on my computer.

I have found this website most illuminating re Paleo/meat diet and modern/Neolithic diet: http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/angel-1984/angel-1984-1a.shtml Such a good chart there by Lawrence Angel which I’d love to see the original paper of because it is so interesting how people have got shorter with smaller pelvic inlet depth since adopting neolithic foods. Also illustrates that life expectancy has only got higher the last 100 years which ties in with better sanitation, vaccination and antibiotics and has nothing to do with food.

And this website shows the meat isotopes in fossil bones which shows that Paleo people were carnivores: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Meat+in+the+human+diet%3a+an+anthropological+perspective.-a0169311689

Anne

sumoman April 29, 2012 at 8:54 AM

So Fred, you call me a liar and a shit… that’s very nice and HIT of you.

I said I have no injuries, which is entirely true. I’m not going to injure myself for your benefit. Instead I will continue to lift bone crunching weights. For example I am now working on Yoke Walking with 355 kg, this is a nice way of putting around 435 kg through each leg.

You are being very unscientific in stating that refraining from eating fatty meats will lead to health and strength suffering, I have yet to read that fruits and veg lead to a deterioration in health… all the indicators are that fatty meats lead to squidgy physiques and poor energy levels. Perhaps this is why HITers can tolerate so little exercise and have such poor results?

Fred Hahn April 29, 2012 at 9:15 AM

“So Fred, you call me a liar and a shit… that’s very nice and HIT of you.”

***You said: ” You also have always had a ’squidgy’ physique common to fatty-meat eaters. ” Saying this to someone is being a shit. Not that it hurts my feelings mind you. It’s just a childish thing to say. But I suppose I should learn since you do this all the time.

“I said I have no injuries, which is entirely true. I’m not going to injure myself for your benefit.”

***No it is not true. You bowed out of a strongman contest due to an injury.

“Instead I will continue to lift bone crunching weights. For example I am now working on Yoke Walking with 355 kg, this is a nice way of putting around 435 kg through each leg.”

***Enjoy.

“You are being very unscientific in stating that refraining from eating fatty meats will lead to health and strength suffering, I have yet to read that fruits and veg lead to a deterioration in health… all the indicators are that fatty meats lead to squidgy physiques and poor energy levels. Perhaps this is why HITers can tolerate so little exercise and have such poor results?”

****You need to get out of your basement and into a library where you can read all sorts of fascinating scientific papers on nutrition and metabolism.

Anne April 29, 2012 at 9:27 AM

Fred – have you seen my comment ? It still says “awaiting moderation” :(

Fred Hahn April 29, 2012 at 9:39 AM

No Anne – I’ll look.

sumoman April 29, 2012 at 10:49 AM

Fred, you appear to lack reading comprehension – I’ll say it again thrice,

“I HAVE NO INJURIES!”
“I HAVE NO INJURIES!”
“I HAVE NO INJURIES!”

Of course I’ve had the odd injury in the PAST. For example, 2 years ago I injured my back before a strongman competition… but 2 weeks later, fully recovered, I came 5th out of 11th in the Yoke Walk (the lift which had caused me the injury).

I think getting stronger in 2 weeks is a good thing – the average HITer makes no gains in an entire lifetime.

Fred, how else would I describe your physique? Perhaps I should say that your HIT fatty-meateater phenotype is that of a weakened endomorphic-ectomorph – does saying it scientifically make you feel better?

Fred I would like to ask you to consider the following very carefully…

As successful as you have been in your family and business life… does it not bother you that the very thing that brought you there, the teenage desire for strength and muscularity, has totally evaded you? Are you not slightly discombobulated that your failures in this area are always explained away by ‘genetics’? Does it not bother you that a puny fellow like myself is bigger and far stronger than you despite having no Chuck Norris genes?

It would bother the heck out of me.

insane grok April 29, 2012 at 10:45 PM

fred, i know you know sumoman, but wow…i think whatever diet and workout routine he is on, i will avoid like the plague…major brain damage, as he can’t read and i’m sure he has someone else type out his barely formed sentences…its sad when they have to attack and spout hate to make themselves feel better. i mean, busting chops is one thing…but its a broken record for him right now

Fred Hahn April 30, 2012 at 9:34 AM

Juan said:

“I HAVE NO INJURIES!” “I HAVE NO INJURIES!”“I HAVE NO INJURIES!”

The Juan said:

“Of course I’ve had the odd injury in the PAST. For example, 2 years ago I injured my back before a strongman competition… but 2 weeks later, fully recovered, I came 5th out of 11th in the Yoke Walk (the lift which had caused me the injury).”

Once injured , you are injured. And the way you train, you’ll be injured again. I have never been injured in my training. And remember, you still can’t do a single one arm pull-up so how strong are you really?

“I think getting stronger in 2 weeks is a good thing – the average HITer makes no gains in an entire lifetime.”

This of course is ridiculous.

“Fred, how else would I describe your physique? Perhaps I should say that your HIT fatty-meateater phenotype is that of a weakened endomorphic-ectomorph – does saying it scientifically make you feel better?”

The fact that you feel the need to make negative comments about my build says it all.

“Fred I would like to ask you to consider the following very carefully…As successful as you have been in your family and business life… does it not bother you that the very thing that brought you there, the teenage desire for strength and muscularity, has totally evaded you?”

First, it has not evaded me. I am 5’10″ tall and weight 168 pounds. My BioAnalogics machine has me at ~12% BF. I wear size 31 pants and 42 suit.

Your view of my build is quite warped. My clients tell me all the time that they wish they could look as good as I do at 50 years of age. I also understand the role of genetics and am perfectly content that I have done pretty much all I can for my physique without trying to become a hardcore body builder which totally disinterests me.

“Are you not slightly discombobulated that your failures in this area are always explained away by ‘genetics’? ”

No because it is.

“Does it not bother you that a puny fellow like myself is bigger and far stronger than you despite having no Chuck Norris genes?”

Now that was funny! You’re not bigger than I am BTW, and strength is relative. I am fairly certain if we took it to the canvass, I’d whup you good. But it’s not fair I suppose because I have wrestling/martial arts training. I might even beat you in an arm wrestling match lefty (I am a lefty). Maybe not since you practice it.

“It would bother the heck out of me.”

Well, you’re an odd fella Juan – I think that is pretty darn clear.

MST April 30, 2012 at 10:29 AM

Fred,
I’m suggest Sumoman be “moderated” off your site. He sounds as if he was picked on in elementary school. He must have received a lot of wedgies and is trying to give as many back as he can!

Fred Hahn April 30, 2012 at 10:52 AM

MST – Juan is harmless. He’s actually pretty smart WRT exercise physiology. For some reason or other, he likes to rib me.

Sean April 30, 2012 at 12:41 PM

As a layman bystander I find the banter from sumoman to be a little humorous. Sure I respect that he has a hobby he enjoys, and seems to be successful at it. He may well also be quite strong. But what does that really matter to anyone who isn’t a meat-head. All this tells me is you’ve bought the line our culture feeds fully just as if a woman was on here spouting about how the woman running the website didn’t have a thin [read: anorexic] physique, with appropriate levels of botox, breast enhancement, and plastic surgery. Anyone read the Adonis Complex? I am not saying don’t enjoy your weigh-lifting, but all this macho posturing is just silly. How long before we start comparing the size of our genitals?

Alex April 30, 2012 at 1:32 PM

@ Ian Shaw: “I’d be more impressed it the comparator were, say, a gorilla.”

There is plenty of research out there on the web to do this yourself but physiological comparsions are pretty much a ‘blunt tool’ for arriving at an ‘ideal diet’ for that particular species.

For instance, many vegans will trot out the familiar “humans do not possess the large canines (and claws) of carnivores”, which indicates – to them – that humans have not evolved to hunt down, kill and dismember prey like a big cat.

Aside from the usual – and perfectly valid – reposte that humans developed the intellect and tools to do it without these physical attributes, there is also the fact that herbivorous animals can also have large canines – the aforementioned gorilla, for one.

In the case of the gorilla, it uses its large ‘fangs’ to strip the bark from trees rather than tear the flesh from prey animals. If humans were herbivorous like the gorilla, he would also be able to strip bark off trees without the large canines – by using tools developed thanks to his increased intellect.

When it comes to gut physiology, you are on slightly firmer ground.

Again, if you read the research, you will find that while the gut of humans and the great apes share many features in common, there are significant differences. The principal difference being that apes like gorillas are ‘hind-gut fermenters’.

Compared to humans, they have longer large intestines and a more capacious caecum housing the fermentative bacteria needed to process their highly fibrous plant diet into usuable energy and nutrients. Humans, by contrast, have longer, more developed small intestines, shorter less developed large intestines and a smaller caecum with fewer fermentative bacteria. We process most of our food in the small intestine using endogenously secreted enzymes rather than lower down the gut using bacteria.

Taking all those factors into account, humans are much closer to the carnivorous side of omnivory and certainly far less adapted to an all-plant diet than is the gorilla!

Anne April 30, 2012 at 1:35 PM

I think it a shame that the comments here have moved away from the topic that Fred posted about. I posted two links (above) which give evidence from the fossil record that meat eating is what we evolved on which backs up that we’re omni-carnivores.

sumoman April 30, 2012 at 1:47 PM

Fred, you have some weird posters here. Sean is talking about his genitals. insane grok is posting pictures of his blubbery physique and wondering why he is unhappy. MST is talking about wedgies. Do none of these people know anything about lifting weights? Are they not trained in exercise science?

Fred, I don’t see your logic of stating that ‘Once injured, you are injured.’ My back is fine. It was originally injured when I hoisted 310 kg but I am now at 355 kg with no injuries. That injury was 2 years ago and caused by fatigue.

Fred my ‘negative’ comments of your physique are a description. It is like when you explain that I am ignorant. HITers explain that everyone who doesn’t do HIT is ignorant. They always say they are being descriptive, so I fail to see why you should see my ‘negative’ comments as anything but descriptive.

Fred, being 5′10″ tall and weighing 168 lbs is not an indication of successful muscular gain. I weigh 180 lbs at 5′9″ and feel that is well underweight for someone who is supposed to be weight trained.

I am sure that your clients think you have a fantastic shape, they are probably blubbery built like insane grok such that a ‘normal’ physique like you have is desirable. They would probably be put off by a muscle monster like Gunter Schlierkamp.

Fred, you would not beat me at an armwrestle as I am considerably stronger than you.

Fred Hahn April 30, 2012 at 2:26 PM

Anne – you are correct!! I didn’t realize that this had occurred. My apologies. I thought I was responding on the steroids thread.

Fred Hahn April 30, 2012 at 2:29 PM

Good points Alex!

liz May 2, 2012 at 12:26 AM

Man, I wish I could take back the 2 years I was a vegetarian (I even did a short raw food diet). I even tried that stupid Master Cleanse. Guess what? I got fatter. No one believes me, but it’s true. It’s only when I started eating meat and then fat again did I feel the weight start to come off. Calorie-counting only took me so far.

I just had a week off the low-carb wagon, and boy, do I regret it. Now it’s going to take me 2-3 weeks of healthy discipline to return to the way I felt normally: healthy, strong, and not bloated! It’s almost like an addiction (sugar), where you have to quit cold turkey for a while before you stop craving it. I’m looking forward to it, because I’ve got to be honest: right now I feel like my body’s been poisoned!

Fred Hahn May 2, 2012 at 6:53 AM

I hear ya Liz. In fact, I recently found Bard’s beer, a gluten free very tasty brew and started to drink that instead of wine. BIG mistake! After just 3 days my gut exploded. I felt incredibly bloated and terrible and 2 weeks later I’m still not over it. Big mistake. I feel like I have a beer belly!

liz May 5, 2012 at 11:21 PM

Fred, I believe you, re: the beer belly feeling. Last week I was actually feeling good about my body, looking in the mirror while working out, etc. But this week? Night and day! My belly is so bloated from sugar, carbs, and tons of sodium that my clothes don’t fit well. Dang, back to beginning, I suppose!

Fred Hahn May 6, 2012 at 8:20 AM

Yup Liz and I’m still paying for it ’round the belly!

Fred Hahn July 24, 2012 at 9:50 AM

“Fred, you have some weird posters here. Sean is talking about his genitals. insane grok is posting pictures of his blubbery physique and wondering why he is unhappy. MST is talking about wedgies. Do none of these people know anything about lifting weights? Are they not trained in exercise science?”

You’re opinions about other people are duly noted.

And I don’t need to be a meteorologist to know the temperature outside. Who cares if they are or are not trained in ex phys?

“Fred, I don’t see your logic of stating that ‘Once injured, you are injured.’ My back is fine. It was originally injured when I hoisted 310 kg but I am now at 355 kg with no injuries. That injury was 2 years ago and caused by fatigue.”

So you’ve been injured then. That was the point. You said you hadn’t been injured. But upon an MRI, a skilled physician would always be able to tell that your injury occurred.

“Fred my ‘negative’ comments of your physique are a description. It is like when you explain that I am ignorant. HITers explain that everyone who doesn’t do HIT is ignorant.”

No they don’t . I just love your sweeping generalities and broad statements. So well thought out and concise. Bravo.

” They always say they are being descriptive, so I fail to see why you should see my ‘negative’ comments as anything but descriptive.”

Because they are negative – as you’ve just admitted – and nasty in a petty small-minded sort of way.

“Fred, being 5′10″ tall and weighing 168 lbs is not an indication of successful muscular gain.”

Says you, right? Well, my pictures speak for themselves. If you think I have not built a decent amount of muscle for a small framed fellow like me, so be it. You still don’t seem to understand the role of genetics – even though you are in possession of a pair of upper arms that should be proof enough.

And the reason why I was so light was due to the loss of muscle mass in my legs due to knee arthritis and knee replacement surgery. I also purposefully dropped my weight to 150 about a year ago to see if single digit BF numbers would take stress off my knees enough to avoid surgery but unfortunately it didn’t. I am now back to 171 pounds and climbing.

“I weigh 180 lbs at 5′9″ and feel that is well underweight for someone who is supposed to be weight trained.”

Well then, so much then for your system of muscle building I suppose. You may need to try something else I guess since if you had more muscle you’d be stronger.

I will say that I think its a bit weird for you to admit that your methods of training have failed to produce the best results Juan since you are so high on your method of training. But how admirable of you to admit that your methods have failed you in growing the muscle mass, hence strength you could have. To do so is quite extraordinary dear chap! Well done. Hear, hear!

“I am sure that your clients think you have a fantastic shape, they are probably blubbery built like insane grok such that a ‘normal’ physique like you have is desirable. ”

Please don’t insult my clients. It’s bad form dear fellow. And for a 51 year old man, I’d say having my physique would be desirable, yes. 12% BF, 171 pounds – yes, I’d say so. But I will admit my legs right now are under par.

“They would probably be put off by a muscle monster like Gunter Schlierkamp.”

Yes, I agree they would. Main-lining drug addicts like him are certainly not anything to aspire to.

“Fred, you would not beat me at an armwrestle as I am considerably stronger than you.”

We all know that strength is only part of the equation. And since my arm size dwarfs yours, a positive outcome for you might be in doubt.

sumoman July 25, 2012 at 4:21 PM

Fred, has your mind been replaced by a soufflé. I’ve said a million million times, “I have no injuries!!!”

“But upon an MRI, a skilled physician would always be able to tell that your injury occurred.” – Fred, I see that as the basis of a future article of mine entitled, “A Skilled Physician”

Fred, you are not small framed – that’s like a fat person claiming they are big boned. You use the word genetics as an excuse – its not your fault because every HITer uses the genetics excuse. As a former HITer I too was genetically limited, with a small frame. Now I lift massive weights and my genetics have much improved.

Fred, I am sorry about your arthritis, but this is entirely due to your poor training practices. Years of emulating Bruce Lee, followed with years of a bone dissolving protein diet and low force, slow exercise is a recipe for disaster.

You need bone crushing forces supplied in a programmed fashion along with an alkaline diet to build a superstrong musculoskeletal system. But its too late now, as HIT has finished you off.

Fred, I lost my best potential years to the madness of HIT… it is a miracle that I am where I am now, lifting with big, brawny strongmen. If I had stuck to HIT I would have weighed 60 lbs, with dissolved bones and many genetic limitations.

Fred, you would not win at armwrestling because; (a) I am much stronger than you. (b) I would tell you about the dangerous forces involved in armwrestling which would cause you such horror that you would immediately withdraw.

Fred Hahn July 25, 2012 at 7:28 PM

“Fred, has your mind been replaced by a soufflé. I’ve said a million million times, “I have no injuries!!!””

But you do. And you have. And I don’t eat that sort of thing.

“But upon an MRI, a skilled physician would always be able to tell that your injury occurred.” – Fred, I see that as the basis of a future article of mine entitled, “A Skilled Physician”

VG.

“Fred, you are not small framed – that’s like a fat person claiming they are big boned.”

You yourself said “Fred you are very narrow shouldered.” I do have a small frame Juan. And small and large frames are indeed real.

“You use the word genetics as an excuse – its not your fault because every HITer uses the genetics excuse.”

Excuse for what? I don’t think we’ll ever see you squat 800 pounds in proper powerlifting form nor will you ever bench press 500 pounds. Why? You’re frame is too small – geentics. You’re upper arms will also remain stickly.

“As a former HITer I too was genetically limited, with a small frame. Now I lift massive weights and my genetics have much improved.”

They are not that massive. And your genetics can’t change. Let’s see you grow some hair back. Let’s see you develop thick, manly, body builder arms like mine. Then I’ll believe you that genetics can change.

“Fred, I am sorry about your arthritis, but this is entirely due to your poor training practices. Years of emulating Bruce Lee, followed with years of a bone dissolving protein diet and low force, slow exercise is a recipe for disaster.”

I agree with the Bruce Lee part. Your statement about protein is revealing about your lack of nutritional knowledge.

“You need bone crushing forces supplied in a programmed fashion along with an alkaline diet to build a superstrong musculoskeletal system. But its too late now, as HIT has finished you off.”

Is that the best you got?

“Fred, I lost my best potential years to the madness of HIT… it is a miracle that I am where I am now, lifting with big, brawny strongmen. If I had stuck to HIT I would have weighed 60 lbs, with dissolved bones and many genetic limitations.”

Well I’m glad you enjoy being in the company of big brawny men. I support that lifestyle choice.

“Fred, you would not win at armwrestling because; (a) I am much stronger than you. ”

In certain things yes, in other no. In my environment You might not even be as strong as some of my women.

“(b) I would tell you about the dangerous forces involved in armwrestling which would cause you such horror that you would immediately withdraw.”

That was almost funny. Good show!

sumoman July 26, 2012 at 1:58 PM

“You might not even be as strong as some of my women.” – Fred are you sure about the soufflé?

Nathan September 3, 2012 at 7:27 AM

First off should say two things i’m a ecological scientist no longer actively working in field and just a down right devil’s advocate at best of times.

I came here because i was interested not in the debate of diet choice or debate over labels of vegan carnivore herbivore or such matters. I was more interested in concept of intelligence development and dietary changes.

Facts as i apprecaite them:

Many if not all (may be wrong cannot be bothered to check) apes are opprtunistic feeders – this means veg and meat -

Denture, anatomy and physiology indicate transition or intermediate response to a diet consisting of meat and vegetables (or plant matter).

Evolutionary record suggest change from herbivory to carnivory

There are other points i could make but this will suffice for my poser question (which is why i’m here): Is development of higher intelligence a dependent factor upon moving to a predatory HUNTING behavioural change where exploitation of opportunities (finding a dead carcass scavaging etc even eating young) enhances intelligence development.

Put simply: Are Predators always to be found as the higher level cognitive species?

Nathan September 3, 2012 at 7:50 AM

As a side note on dietary requirements and exercise

is there a guru based dietary plan that will extend life expectancy and produce an ARNY physique: Simply No

There have and always be tradeoffs between body requirements (nutrition) and optimal performance at peak times – as an individual you must decide the system of fueling and balancing these demands for specific purposes. This is done naturally by all species i know although for majority except ourselves in the main this is accomplished at a subconcious inherent biological level. We=are the first species i am aware of that will slim, bulk up, and generally modify our diets on a conscious level to achive specified goals.

Vegan, vegetarian, ominivore, carnivore are all terms other species have no concept of. We are unique in many ways as a species not least of which is are ability to select our diet (except for many of our poorer brothers and sisters). Remember peeps your choice is not everyone’s choice and what can be accomplished one way may not be accomplished another. Goals derive solutions – be happy you have a goal you understand and a direction you can take and not just succumb to the drives of a unknown biological pressure.

green coffee bean extract September 15, 2012 at 3:06 AM

Wonderful site. Lots of helpful info here. I am sending it to some friends ans also sharing in delicious.
And of course, thank you to your effort!

julie January 21, 2014 at 5:02 PM

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